C Band Blindscanning Tips Request.

Discussions specifically related to master c band satellite television.
dishcrank
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Re: C Band Blindscanning Tips Request.

Post by dishcrank » Thu Feb 14, 2019 9:02 am

supwiddiss wrote:
Wed Feb 13, 2019 3:51 pm
Quite a few 4K broadcasts and tons of radio channels. None shown on the various satellite charts. Nor in the Clarke Belt xml blindscan file.
Would your friend mind sharing these 4K broadcasts? AFAIK, the majority of 4K broadcasts can be found on SES1. I have blind scanned some 4K wild feed backhauls on G3C and Galaxy 17, but besides those, slim pickings.

supwiddiss
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Re: C Band Blindscanning Tips Request.

Post by supwiddiss » Thu Feb 14, 2019 9:50 am

yes. I searched and found a page with a list of those settings.
so i know that pol, fec, system, and modulation switches in each line are correct.
working on getting those 4k and scan files from the dude. perhaps get him to pop in here.

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tvroadmin
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Re: C Band Blindscanning Tips Request.

Post by tvroadmin » Fri Feb 15, 2019 1:27 pm

Please share your UHDTV feed findings, if any, so others reading the forum can benefit too.
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rusty
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Re: C Band Blindscanning Tips Request.

Post by rusty » Sun Feb 17, 2019 2:46 pm

Got an Edision UHD box on the way. Suppose to do hardware blind scan.
12' Cosmos Primestar (refurbished)36" SuperJack Actuator
Chaparral Corotor Feed (Norsat 8115, 4106A)
ZGemmaH7 UHD, OctagonSX88 HD, Edision UHD, DSR-6000, DSR-6050
Clarke Belt: 22W - 133W

supwiddiss
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Re: C Band Blindscanning Tips Request.

Post by supwiddiss » Mon Feb 18, 2019 12:42 pm

dishcrank wrote:
Thu Feb 14, 2019 8:52 am
supwiddiss wrote:
Sun Feb 10, 2019 6:29 pm
12 hours into a complete blindscan and 50% done with 0 channels so far, still on 4 digit SR's I got wondering.
Anybody?
If you are using openATV to scan, the firmware treats 'DVB-S' and 'DVB-S2' as different standards. So if there is a 'DVB-S2' feed with a certain SR and your xml file contains this SR but defines it as 'DVB-S', it won't find anything. I learned this the hard way. :hammerme:
Yes. This is what I've gotten. The other settings are not covered and if they are are buried deep in their definitions and scattered all over the place.
<transponder frequency="3977000" symbol_rate="17777000" polarization="0" fec_inner="3" system="0" modulation="1" />

polarization:
0 = H
1 = V
2 = L
3 = R

fec_inner:
0 = Auto
1 = 1/2
2 = 2/3
3 = 3/4
4 = 5/6
5 = 7/8
6 = 8/9
7 = 3/5
8 = 4/5
9 = 9/10
15 = None

system:
0 = DVB-S
1 = DVB-S2

modulation:
0 = Auto
1 = QPSK
2 = 8PSK
(The others? 16ASPK, 32ASPK are like WTF)

The others? Quite vague:

Roll-off
Pilot
Input Stream ID
PLS Mode
PLS Code
T2MI

And if what I gather if Network Scan really worked, blindscanning wouldn't even be needed because all of the extra transponders would be found and scanned.

As for the ATSC XML file, it's very clear in the header what formatting settings mean.

<!-- useable flags are
1: Network Scan
2: use BAT
4: use ONIT
8: skip NITs of known networks
and combinations of this.
-->
<!-- transponder parameters:
modulation: 7 = 8_VSB, 8 = 16_VSB, 3 = 64-QAM, 5 = 256-QAM

A few lines of my edited xml follow. As per the scan results of my HDHomerun tuner which scanned those 70-something ITC cable channels.
What is also 'interesting' is that in the atsc.xml in the atsc terrestrial section of the file has <transponder frequency="57000000" modulation="6"/>. Switch 6 for modulation is not shown in the header.

<transponder frequency="57000000" modulation="5"/>
<transponder frequency="63000000" modulation="5"/>
<transponder frequency="69000000" modulation="5"/>
<transponder frequency="79000000" modulation="5"/>

A search explains "64 QAM and 256 QAM are modulation methods. "Clear QAM" will be sent using one of those methods, as will the scrambled channels that require a cable receiver to watch".
Well, I have Clear QAM channels. The Silicon Dust tuner and TV's scan and they tune on my TV's and PC's.
The H7 should. But doesn't. Not even a signal is shown.
So if a brave soul out there could hook up their cable to their receiver and see if you get at least a signal (even though you may have scrambled channels)...it would help a bit. If my tuner was SOL out of the box, I'm screwed anyway.

belter-one
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Re: C Band Blindscanning Tips Request.

Post by belter-one » Tue Feb 19, 2019 12:49 pm

supwiddiss wrote:
Mon Feb 18, 2019 12:42 pm
dishcrank wrote:
Thu Feb 14, 2019 8:52 am
supwiddiss wrote:
Sun Feb 10, 2019 6:29 pm
12 hours into a complete blindscan and 50% done with 0 channels so far, still on 4 digit SR's I got wondering.
Anybody?
If you are using openATV to scan, the firmware treats 'DVB-S' and 'DVB-S2' as different standards. So if there is a 'DVB-S2' feed with a certain SR and your xml file contains this SR but defines it as 'DVB-S', it won't find anything. I learned this the hard way. :hammerme:
Yes. This is what I've gotten. The other settings are not covered and if they are are buried deep in their definitions and scattered all over the place.
<transponder frequency="3977000" symbol_rate="17777000" polarization="0" fec_inner="3" system="0" modulation="1" />

polarization:
0 = H
1 = V
2 = L
3 = R

fec_inner:
0 = Auto
1 = 1/2
2 = 2/3
3 = 3/4
4 = 5/6
5 = 7/8
6 = 8/9
7 = 3/5
8 = 4/5
9 = 9/10
15 = None

system:
0 = DVB-S
1 = DVB-S2

modulation:
0 = Auto
1 = QPSK
2 = 8PSK
(The others? 16ASPK, 32ASPK are like WTF)

The others? Quite vague:

Roll-off
Pilot
Input Stream ID
PLS Mode
PLS Code
T2MI

And if what I gather if Network Scan really worked, blindscanning wouldn't even be needed because all of the extra transponders would be found and scanned.

As for the ATSC XML file, it's very clear in the header what formatting settings mean.

<!-- useable flags are
1: Network Scan
2: use BAT
4: use ONIT
8: skip NITs of known networks
and combinations of this.
-->
<!-- transponder parameters:
modulation: 7 = 8_VSB, 8 = 16_VSB, 3 = 64-QAM, 5 = 256-QAM

A few lines of my edited xml follow. As per the scan results of my HDHomerun tuner which scanned those 70-something ITC cable channels.
What is also 'interesting' is that in the atsc.xml in the atsc terrestrial section of the file has <transponder frequency="57000000" modulation="6"/>. Switch 6 for modulation is not shown in the header.

<transponder frequency="57000000" modulation="5"/>
<transponder frequency="63000000" modulation="5"/>
<transponder frequency="69000000" modulation="5"/>
<transponder frequency="79000000" modulation="5"/>

A search explains "64 QAM and 256 QAM are modulation methods. "Clear QAM" will be sent using one of those methods, as will the scrambled channels that require a cable receiver to watch".
Well, I have Clear QAM channels. The Silicon Dust tuner and TV's scan and they tune on my TV's and PC's.
The H7 should. But doesn't. Not even a signal is shown.
So if a brave soul out there could hook up their cable to their receiver and see if you get at least a signal (even though you may have scrambled channels)...it would help a bit. If my tuner was SOL out of the box, I'm screwed anyway.
Thank you supwiddiss,

For posting all this information. Is not the source code for all of the Zgemma-H7 supposed to be open source? I have gone to their website(s) and I have
been unable to figure out what, if any, source code is the code for the hardware drivers for the receiver. If this is open source we should be able to find the source code and re-write the driver code (or hopefully uncomment the code block that enables a true hardware blindscan :bananna: ) and implement a true hardware blind scan. I am a complete novice at such things, but would love to work on this none the less. Maybe a Guru on this site could indicate if and where this source code is? Any advice would be much appreciated.

Sounds like fun?

belter-one

diyjeb
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Joined: Mon Feb 18, 2019 6:35 pm

Re: C Band Blindscanning Tips Request.

Post by diyjeb » Tue Feb 19, 2019 7:21 pm

@supwiddiss, Even though I know I receive 256QAM signals, I tried scanning with all three tuner C configuration options for ATSC provider (modulation type) and didn't find any. I work for the local cable TV company and know that I have good forward RF levels in my house.

Receiver: Zgemma H7.AC
Image: PurE2

dishcrank
TVRO Guru
Posts: 208
Joined: Thu Jul 14, 2016 1:14 am

Re: C Band Blindscanning Tips Request.

Post by dishcrank » Wed Feb 20, 2019 1:27 pm

The zgemma uses the Si2169D chip from Silicon Labs. The datasheet brief can be found at

https://www.silabs.com/documents/public ... -short.pdf

Blind scan is indeed possible according to the manufacturer. The problem is getting the complete datasheet so we can figure out what needs to be written to the control register for the blind scan operation and how to interpret the results. It would then be pretty easy to write a python script or enigma2 plugin to get the job done.

Someone should call Si Labs and request the complete datasheet, but I doubt they will give it to you because DirecTV has a gun pointed to their heads not to divulge the proprietary DSS aspects of the demodulator. A better strategy might be to call them up and pretend to be a DirecTV engineer who urgently needs the datasheet. :goody

Seriously, if we had all the info, we could demodulate dtv's stuff too, including their proprietary dvb-s2x transmissions. :reddevil:

dishcrank
TVRO Guru
Posts: 208
Joined: Thu Jul 14, 2016 1:14 am

Re: C Band Blindscanning Tips Request.

Post by dishcrank » Wed Feb 20, 2019 1:47 pm

Same problem with the MSB1237 atsc tuner. Since digital cable uses it, they won't divulge the datasheet.

If someone is really determined to make this work, you'll have to get yourself a cable box or dtv box that use these tuners and log the traffic to the chip to see how the proprietary functions are enabled. If you are lucky, you might be able to get a standalone chip to mimic those operations, assuming they are not encrypted with an on board chip serial number (a real possibility).

supwiddiss
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Re: C Band Blindscanning Tips Request.

Post by supwiddiss » Thu Feb 21, 2019 3:00 am

Well the cat is out of the bag. The H7 has deficiencies that are only revealed once you get over the c-band reception learning curve.
Unfortunately, that's about the time the warranty and return policy ran out. Right?

Looks like Broadcom released the chipset along with pre packaged .ko kernel modules for builders.
I see no source code for any Broadcom stb chipsets in the Linux TV 'anything' sites.
It's been written, sealed, and distributed. I've peeked at several builds (openatv, openpli, pure2) and they are using the same exact .ko.
Nothing has been modified as far as I can tell.

The MBS1237/Rafael terrestrial/cable tuner is the same. This chipset combo is used in many tuner and STB devices.
It worked when the coders wrote it some years ago. I cant verify if even new ebay dedicated tuners using the same combo does tune cable, even on cable card tuners. I suspect nothing.

Zgemma tuners are soldered in. They are proprietary. There is no in your face specs on pinouts. Nor as my friend just found out who purchased a Jinxbox tuner which appeared to fit, it wont.

The Si2169 is the same. Chips on a proprietary tuner card.

I do certainly see the H7 is a nice 4k sat receiver. But leaves much lacking. The European community has helped me very much ironing out my learning curve on this receiver. Not many of us have been into C Band in years. Nor have had enough receivers to tell which one excels the others.
But already I see even an el-cheapo Edison receiver does a blind scan. And does it fast.

I've used ndiswrapper to change Windows drivers to Linux drivers. The android community is doing wonders with many devices.
Heck. Source code is downloadable direct from the manufacturers.

I've gotten gun shy from resellers who choke at technical questions before and after purchase. Can you say "cell phone store"?
Someone mentioned the H7 has only been out for not that long. But the "guts" soldered to the pc boards inside have been for several years.
Asus offers updates. Samsung offers updates. SiliconDust offers updates. Firmware updates.
Linux boxes (the H7) do not. Openatv, OpenPLI, PurE2 do. In the form of bells and whistles, not firmware to open up the chipsets.

As far as anything else mentioned here I still remember when I joined I read a post where a guy asked a question about tuners for the H7.
Forget exactly what it was but he got ejected fast, and the question was actually a good one. Then it was said that tek was to be contacted to cancel his order for an H7. So I'm seeing you have to be very careful what you ask or mention here. And to not blame the main sponsor of this site.
I'm still using a 6+year old tablet frequently, running a KatKiss rom built from Asus source code. It only kept getting better.

I asked if the H9 wouldn't have been a better receiver than the H7. Definite No answer. But now I read, the H9 does blindscan and Dolby Digital quite well.
Correct me. If the terrestrial/cable tuner in the H7 can't do at least what every newer TV does (even my buddy's 4-5 year old Samsung TV), why have it at all?

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